William I'Anson specialises in the sale and acquisition of some of the most iconic and historic racing cars ever built. From Grand Prix Bugattis, Jaguar D Types to Group C Legends, the calibre of cars is truly extraordinary. He has also raced a bunch of them, and has lived and breathed the car community for his entire life. So if you love classic cars and you are into your historic racing, Will's insights are truly invaluable.

Archie Hill interviews William I'Anson for The Apex by Custodian. Recorded and produced by Archie Hill. Transcribed by David Marcus.

Will, thanks for taking the time, how are you?

Good thanks Archie, thanks for coming, it is a pleasure to show you around.

We bumped into each other last weekend at the Goodwood Festival of Speed where you were driving that 1952 Grand Prix Ferrari up the hill climb, that is not a bad way to spend a weekend!

Actually it was a great honour, it was a great way to spend a weekend. It's lovely being there, we all go there every year, but it's actually lovely being there every day all the way through. It is really nice to just have the time to wonder around, catch up with everybody, catch up with your friends, see all the cars, and to get to drive such an important car was pretty special.

What is the story behind that car?

This particular car is actually a very important piece of Ferrari history. It has 11 Grand Prix wins, so it did four years as a Works car, it started out as a 500, in '52, so it was three wins for Ascari in this championship winning, and it won the Swiss Grand Prix which was the first point for a 500. It was driven by Ascari, Farina, Trintignant, Gonzales, Hawthorn, Peter Whitehead, to name a few, Farina if I haven't already mentioned him. Then it was upgraded to 2.5 litre spec when Grand Prix started to embrace the 2.5 litre Formula one in '54. Gonzales won the British Grand Prix in it and then it was driven to victory in the Monaco Grand Prix by Trintignant. So it was the first Ferrari to win Monaco.

Left: Ascari // Right: Gonzalez // Source: Revs Institute

Oh wow, that's not a bad history, that is a pretty special car. Was it relatively easy to drive up the hill? I know some cars are a bit intimidating when it is your first time.

No, it was really very, it's a lovely car to drive. When you're driving anything, I think if you are driving anything really hard, it would feel different on its limit, but it was a very attractable, lots of torque, really nice engine, the gearbox was nice, it was a nice car to drive, I really enjoyed it, it was a real pleasure.

It is Molecombe that's the tricky corner going up the hill? You can't see the corner until you get there.

I was taking that one probably pretty sensibly, for it's reputation of making you look silly if you get it wrong.

Having watched it for so many years, you always wonder what it's actually like to go up the hill climb, but it sounds like it's not too …

… you look at the difference between taking a car up on demonstration and trying to drive to the top and set a fast time in the shoot out, I think running a DFV powered or any later F1 or formula car up there, or sports car, the quicker you go it certainly feels, I took an IMSA car up there a few years ago and the road definitely felt a lot smaller than when you take something from the 50s.

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Will drives the 1952 Ferrari up the Goodwood Hillclimb // Source: Goodwood

I am interested in terms of event eligibility and how that can actually affect values on some of these historic racing cars. The Monaco Historic is becoming a very popular event to do, and I imagine is that having an affect on prices on historic F1 cars for example?

Yes, listen, it always has and it's always been an influence in the market, and the more you can do with something the more desirable it is. The combination there's two things, the first one is the eligibility of getting into an event, but then there's having the best that you can get on that grid. I think as grids get fuller and fuller, because the events are over subscribed which is great, there are more and more fantastic events popping up. The more established events, Goodwood and Monaco, are massively over subscribed. It leads the market as well because you want to have the best car. If you are going to turn up with a great history car, if you are going to Monaco and you are a Monaco winner, if you are going to Le Mans Classic, the Le Mans winner or class winner at Le Mans, it's definitely going to put you further up the list when it comes to sorting the entries out. So it does drive it but I think as race cars go from just being historic race cars, as the values go up and bigger collections are drawn, a lot more people are coming towards race cars because of the depth of history. As that transition of car to art, passion of ownership to have all that history. For me to be able to sit in the seat that Ascari and those guys, it's not lost on me, I'm surrounded by these cars all the time and it was a pretty special experience to do it. I think the history as much as the eligibility is driving the collectability of these cars.

I suppose the ability to actually use them as well, because if you weren't too familiar with historic racing you might think okay, what am I going to do with an 80s Formula 1 car, but actually the fact that these events are becoming more and more popular, owners have more of a chance to use them, is also like a massive green light for them in terms of getting into these cars.

I think massively and it's been a big indication at the minute. When I grew up my father ran Bugattis and he went to the race meeting in the Bugattis and ERAs, that was the modern grid that was maybe 50s cars running. It was a different race meeting where people were running DFV powered cars, they were not far out, to be honest, they were not that far out of being new cars then. You look at the series now, people are running LMP1 cars and people are running GT1 cars and GT3 and GT2 and GTAM, and the more there are events for them, there's plenty of capability for guys to run it. So the more people are running them, the more they get run, the easier it is to run them. That is why we are getting full grids. I don't think anything is out of the reach of being runnable with modern F1 cars, you just need the right teams and technicians to do it.

Yes, what's quite interesting as well is that obviously you touched on it, these cars have such impressive historical provenance, but now they are being run at these historic events, they are still making history in the sense, if that car, the Lotus 81 just there, if that won the Monaco historic, that is obviously going to have a positive impact on its values as well, so they are still making history in that sense, the provenance is still accruing.

Absolutely, and the blue Cobra behind you, that's a nice original, quite rare, because it's a COPCO right hand drive car, and that's a nice original car that was a road car for a lot of its life, and got converted keeping its originality for racing, but it won the TT, and it's still the fastest lap around Goodwood for a cobra, which is pretty impressive. Does that help the value of that car and collectability? Yes, it is creating its own history.

That's interesting, and obviously since you have raced quite a bit as well, I think in terms of some of these historic events you've competed at them, are there any notable experiences that you have had at some of these events?

Yes, I think a handful. I grew up with all of this and my father ran Bugattis, so I grew up as a child, so like a lot of my friends, there are a handful of my friends who all grew up together and all wanted to do it. So yes, I've been lucky, I've raced at Monza which was fantastic, had a chance to do Le Mans Classic and do the support race at Le Mans which was a lot of fun, that's a great track. I got to race a DB3S in America, and that was pretty special. That was a great opportunity, having done probably 2,000 road miles in it before hand on a couple of rallies. They stand out, and I personally really enjoy now more and more, some of the rallies, like the Modena Cento Ore. I was lucky enough to campaign that a couple of years in the Group 4 308. We got close to winning, we were second, but those are fun, because you are getting quality time with a great friend in a great car. It's not just the circuit, you are doing special stages, up the hill climbs, you are driving in the car, you are in it from the start of the day until the end, and you are in Florence, you are in Italy, what's not to like, and you are in a Ferrari, it's a pretty big tick.

I suppose it's a little bit stressful, some of those rallies as opposed to doing some of the circuit racing?

I think it depends, if you're pushing competitively in them, going up a 12 km closed road stage on post notes, it gets the heart pumping.

Yes no, that's fair enough. I suppose from these experiences, do you feel like that gives you a bit of a competitive edge when it comes to clients coming to you wanting to get into some of these cars, you're well-placed to advise them?

I don't know about a competitive edge, I think what it does, it's not by any fluke that this room is full of race cars, I grew up with race cars, and I think that if you're passionate about it and you are involved and you are selling race cars, yes, I think having been lucky enough to drive some fabulous cars qualifies you to talk about them, not just from the history, and I really enjoy working with clients and bringing them on in what they want to do. I think by having gone on a journey up through cars yourself, yes, I think it gives you an insight to be able to say, have you thought about this, or actually what about starting one of these and moving to this? To be able to really talk about a car, you can talk about history. I think having the hands-on experience is certainly important to be able to help give an informed opinion on whether something is right for someone or give them a feel of what to expect or where to go.

Matching the car to the driver is a very important part of what you're doing, if someone comes to you, they might be interested in one of those cars, but upon further diligence, you could say actually you are probably better suited to something like this?

Yes, it's nice, very often actually you will be talking to someone who has come to see one car, and you will have a conversation and you will get into what they really want to do. What are you looking to do, because at the end of the day it's got to be fun. All of these race cars, yes, they have their value, there is an investment side, it's gone up, but particularly the race cars, people are passionate, they want to race the car, and it's got to be fun. It's nice being able to sit down with people and understand what they want to do. What are you looking to do? What events are you looking to do? Do you want to race with two drivers or your friends or do you want to drive single seaters, what's your goal? Being able to have the time to sit down and do that, sometimes people end up going in a different direction than they first thought, and that's nice to give that input.

The calibre of cars that you do sell, and then the provenance behind them is incredible. I know you sold recently Prince Bira's ERA C-Type. When you're going through the process of selling that car, obviously it's so historically significant so we want to see it out at events, do you think much about that?

I really wanted that car in here because I grew up with ERAs and I am passionate about them. Luckily the nature of anybody looking to buy the car, and the car will be back on track. It is going to be raced again, which is nice. Thankfully with a car with that much provenance, that's been raced for years and years by its last owner who has been a great custodian of it and raced it over the years. People see that. It is important to take things to events and get them out there, but luckily I think the people buying, they know a lot of them the events it's going to go. You've got a TT winner there, you've got another car that's been a regular in the TT. That's a Sussex Trophy winner, that's been on the front row the last few times. They have been seen out so people know what they are getting into, but yes, just helping get that across doesn't harm.

Prince Bira & his ERA // Source: Brooklands

What do you make of buying a car as an investment?

My father always said to me you should always buy a car because you want it, and then whatever happens is going to make you smile. I agree with that but if you feel that you're happy with why you've bought it and you feel you've got relatively good taste about what you've bought, the market usually tends to play out in the right way. I think that the values of all the cars have gone up and nobody, it is an investment, you can't hide from that, and it's not a problem. I think thankfully for the kind of cars that we've got here, people are passionate, they are either passionate about buying them for their collection, they are aware that they're going up, and they're conscious of that, but I don't think you buy, you buy something like the Lotus because you want to race it too, or you've built a collection of race cars, you're passionate about racing, they've gone up, it's not just an investment commodity. Luckily most of the cars we sell are all going out, are being used, and I don't have a strong opinion either way, I don't disagree with either, I think it's good that the market continues to grow and be strong, for the reason that it brings new people in and it means the cars are used, and it means that events are strong. Goodwood is not a cheap event to put on, but it is put on amazingly. Because of the values of the cars and because it draws enormous sponsorship and the amazing job they do, it's allowed that event to continue to grow, and because of it, look what cars we got to see last weekend, that you just don't get to see normally anywhere else.

I believe earlier on in your career you spent some time, was it Brooks Auctioneers, and you worked at Bonhams as well, has that experience you've got in the auction houses informed and helped with what you do now when it comes to buying or selling or your understanding of the market?

It's an amazing grounding, you get to learn an awful lot. I worked for Robert Brooks who I was very fond of, immense knowledge in all the team there, so I was lucky. It's good, it gives you a grounding in everything, you have to learn about researching the cars, putting the auction together, selling the cars, it's a good grounding.

What do you make of the car market at the moment? I know that's a bit of a broad blanket question.

I will concentrate on what we see, and I think that there's movement in the market. I think that really you should just follow the movement. Some of the cars that we've got here are very specialist cars. Some of them we will take a little bit of time, solely because there's probably maybe only five or six guys who want to race those, hopefully more than that, but everything sells. I think that the strength of the market, with a great car with a great provenance stand out, are not repeatable anywhere else. I think the market is strong as ever. We are seeing cars that are selling, we are selling a lot of stuff off of the public market, which is fine, and that's the nature of some of the bigger collections. We are seeing plenty of interest and plenty of movement in what we're doing.

Is selling off market becoming a bit more common, to me that sounds like quite a good, your car hasn't even come to market yet and you've got a buyer for it?

It's not that, I think that we would do the same process with every car. We are quite passionate about really putting the story, we put a lot of research into these cars, we build a lot of documentation on it, we really research the history, so that's the same that goes there. Some people, and I think that most of the cars here, we present and we put them out there and it's important and it gets them to different people. Some people don't always want that, so that's the nature of sometimes things are done behind closed doors, there's no right or wrong way of doing it, it's personal preference.

On the provenance angle, again I know it's such an important part of what you do and then the cars that are in here, is that sometimes a challenging process?

Yes, it's a lot of delving into history. With this car with the BRM, which is so original, it hasn't been seen in public since 1973. We went to the BRM archives to research something. You can go through, there's letters there, they are all there at Warwick University, you go through and there's letters from John Surtees' contracts in there for the season, there's letters from Raymond Mays, it's great. We were delving in the history of for example the D Type there and the Lotus 15, I've got a photograph of them racing together in Canada in 1960, and they've never been back together again until now. We have quite a big archive up there, I've got all the motorsports, we research through old adverts and different things. It's interesting, the more you research different cars, you are often oh, there's that one, we've done that before. I keep telling I've got just endless post-it notes in all my books.

I'm just looking at the Delage there as well, what is that 1920?

1923, fabulous, I love that car because I remember it from being a kid. That's a 1923 Grand Prix Delage, that was the only Grand Prix car for the '23 season, the first to have the V12 Grand Prix engine. If you ever get a chance to see one of those, it's like the V16 BRM, it's a work of art. Delage were very ahead of their time. It only did one race that season and then they developed the '24 car and it was pushed aside to the back of the workshop, and then it was gifted to a talented engineer called Morris Becket, who had worked with Spad fighters in the war, I'm pretty sure, I could be corrected if I'm wrong, he was involved and worked with the Hispano factory who built the V8 aero engines, and he got gifted an engine from Louis Balerio for his work with the early fighters, and Delage gifted him the '23 car, they were working with the '24 car, it was deemed too valuable a piece to just cast aside, so it was gifted to him, and he built the race car. Delage built him a special gearbox to take the power, and it ran San Sebastian Grand Prix. I think it practised, didn't race, but it really held it's own. A chap called Roland Coty owned it and raced it, or certainly had it raced, he was a perfume magnate before the war. It's just special, that's a 10.5 litre V8 aeroplane engine. This is an important piece of history, this is where it all started with putting big engines into Grand Prix chassis.

Do you have a favourite era or type of car that you particularly have a fondness for?

It's difficult to say, I have a real passion for pre-war cars, Bugattis, because that's what I grew up with, things like the Becket and BRAs. I've really enjoyed 50s sports cars, because I was lucky enough to race them and I just like that level of power, power to grip, they're beautiful cars and it's just great fun racing. I do like the DF era, I love particularly the high air box, just before getting too much aerodynamics in.

So around the 70s?

Early 70s through to mid 70s. It's funny, we've had quite a lot of cars through here with US history, IMSA cars and Daytona history, a lot of 935s, and the more you delve into that US history, it's fired up quite a big passion. It was great characters and great racing, Daytona, Sebring, I have a big passion for Le Mans, anything that went to a sports car race at Le Mans, anything that did Le Mans is pretty special.

To end on I was actually going to ask you some quick fire questions, interesting to get your thoughts on some of these. Spa or Le Mans?

Le Mans.

Formula 1 car or a sports racing car?

Formula 1.

D Type of Cobra?

Ooh that's a tough question because I think they're both fantastic, but it would have to be D Type.

Naturally aspirated or turbo charged?

I don't have a strong opinion on that. If I have to choose one I will, I think they've both created some really special cars.

Plead the fifth on that one. Steve McQueen or Paul Newman?

I have to say Paul Newman, although I've had a poster of Steve McQueen and the Great Escape on my wall since a small kid, and my son will probably not talk to me again when he hears this, but yes, probably Paul Newman.

We were chatting before, I think, well this might ruffle a few feathers, but the real car racing guys will probably go Paul Newman just because he raced at Le Mans in '79 in a 935, and I think he was racing until he was about 80, proper racer, and I think even later on in his career he was saying racer first, actor second.

And he was Butch Cassidy.

Yes, that's pretty good. Modern or Classic?

Classic.

Patinaed or Concours.

I think Patinaed.

Favourite racing driver?

Probably Jackie Stewart.

I actually heard him give his speech at Stirling's memorial, I think that was the first time I had been in his presence, that was really special. Favourite circuit?

I've always enjoyed racing on Silverstone, just because it's been somewhere I've always had strong memories going as a kid. One that stood out that I really enjoyed the whole feel of it was Monza. When you go to walk around there the day before, and it's water dripping off the bridge and the banking is pretty special.

One car from your stock that you can keep?

For everything it would have to be the D Type I think.

Okay, that's the one we're going to go and shoot a video on momentarily.

The Grand Prix Bugattis, yes, I suppose an early '35 has always been stand out there, or a D, which is just very usable for everything.

Final question, what is in your dream three car garage?

I do get asked this, and it might surprise people, I would have an early '35, the picture on the wall, an early 2.0 Grand Prix car on beaded edge wheels, skinny radiator, like the purest magic, great car. I would have a street spec nice original 289 Cobra, and a 904 Porsche. Very nice flowing body, ran with the four cylinder roller bearing engine.

It's got the centre exit exhaust on them as well. I'm glad you had an answer for that, because some people don't. That's fantastic, thank you so much for your time. Where can people find out more about, obviously you're on Instagram or what's the website?

Obviously we have our own website, which took a lot of imagination, www.williamianson.com give us a call, come say hello, but all our details are there.

I will leave all the details as well down in the You Tube description as well, so go check that out. Thank you very much for watching, and if you want to find out more about Custodian as well, you can do so at www.custodian.club. We have recently launched specialist insurance as well, so if you own a specialist car, make sure you check that out. We will also have Will's cars available on the showroom as well soon, so there will be a link in the description to go and have a look at those. Thank you very much for watching, please like the video, subscribe to the channel if you haven't already, and I will see you in the next video. Thanks again for listening.

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William I’Anson: Historic Racing Insights

William I’Anson: Historic Racing Insights

William I’Anson: Historic Racing Insights

William I’Anson: Historic Racing Insights

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